How did a hip-hop loving redneck get to become a fighter for sustainability?

What makes a happier and more productive workplace?

And how can we create a movement in which we recognise and appreciate the contribution of every single person, even if they come in different forms an intensities?

Our own Scott Denton answers these, and many related questions, in our first ever interview.

• [00:04] Introduction
• [01:12] Starting to think about sustainability
• [04:16] What is "enkelfähig"?
• [09:23] Motivating others
• [12:46] Finding happiness by giving back
• [16:41] "Enkelfähigkeit" in our personal and work lives
• [23:22] Accepting any effort & trusting the process
• [28:56] Not everyone is in a position to choose
• [33:27] Credits

• Laloux, Frederic. 2014. Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness. Nelson Parker. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20776175-reinventing-organizations.

Introduction

[00:00:00] Eirik: Hello and welcome to Plan-A.show, the podcast that explores questions of sustainability, resilience, and multi-generational thinking in our businesses, societies and personal lives.

[00:00:15] Today, Niels and I will be talking to Scott in order to dive a little deeper into how this podcast came about. While all three of us had, in some way or other, been concerning ourselves with questions around sustainability and resilience in various capacities, it was really Scott's professional engagement with the subject that brought us together.

[00:00:34] And so we thought it only fitting that the first interview we bring to you is with the man without whose impetus none of this would be happening. We will be diving into how Scott became involved with these principles and ideas around sustainability, how he is engaging with them in a professional capacity, and where he sees it going in the future.

[00:00:51] And because Scott is who he is–if you haven't yet met him by listening to any of our previous episodes, you're in for a treat–I like to think of him as a hip-hop loving redneck of sustainability shaking up business culture in Germany. And with that hopefully enticing introduction, I'll hand over to Niels to kick the conversation off.

Starting to think about sustainability

[00:01:09] Niels: Scott, the man with the plan, the man with the Plan A, good morning, Scott.

[00:01:17] Scott: Good morning, Niels. And again, I still don't know what impetus means. And again, I really liked the fact that I'm the redneck of "enkelfähig", I take that with honor.

[00:01:29] Niels: As we say in the intro to each episode, we are all about sustainability, resilience, and multi generational thinking, which is extremely broad, we'll dig down into the specifics a little later, but how did you even get interested in any of these subjects?

[00:01:45] Scott: The interest that I had in "enkelfähig", when I first saw it, was the multi-generational part of it. And that had to do like, literally with multi-generational.

[00:01:53] I come from a really poor background. But there were several times in my past that other decisions could have been made, priorities could have been had, as far as generational wealth is concerned. And I felt, for me, like from the beginning, coming from Alabama and fighting my way through everything, getting to Europe, making my life here, seeing how the Europeans do things, for me it was very clear I wanted to do something for my family, so that my children have a little bit of a headstart.

[00:02:22] Not this financial get my kids rich, but teach them principles. Also help them figure out how to make decisions in their lives. And since I've found "enkelfähig", that seems to be a very good way to guide your decision-making in certain things.

[00:02:37] Since I came to Germany, I have to say in '94, around that time, that's when I really started getting interested in the, and aware of the, ecological issues that the planet faces. I grew up with the hole in the ozone kind of thing, but in Alabama not much of the news made it made its way to us. I only saw nature all the time, you know, I didn't see the destruction of it, I didn't understand it, it wasn't reported on.

[00:03:01] But when I got here, I actually found out there's a Green Party and they actually had momentum. And my girlfriend, of course, was of the generation that you couldn't be anything other than green. And so I learned a lot about it and I realized this is also something that's dear to me, even if not near to me.

[00:03:18] Niels: So there wasn't necessarily a single moment that got you interested; it was more a gradual process?

[00:03:24] Scott: Yeah, exactly. And I think for me, it was the single moment was when I read that word "enkelfähig". That was the single moment where everything kind of came together.

[00:03:31] I had certain things that were eating at me the entire time, you know. Like this idea of you need a headstart, if you want to get further. That's one thing. The other thing is we're but. our planet. That can't be good. There's lots of things that aren't rhyming with this, you know. The greed that has been just rampant in what has become this capitalist, this hyper-capitalist, world that we live in.

[00:03:53] So all of these things, that we all seem to think aren't okay, I never really had a way to express that I care for them all. And then "enkelfähig" came along. I was like, okay this is something that actually incorporates all of that in one place. And even though you might not have a single focus on one of those things, you can focus on one of the things that really gets you going, or that really motivates you, but at the same time, be a part of all of it.

What is "enkelfähig"?

[00:04:17] Niels: I think at this point, we probably ought to define "enkelfähig", at least how you understand it.

[00:04:23] Scott: Well, I'm probably the most eclectic person to ask, because I've been talking to so many people about it and everybody understands it a little differently. For me, "enkelfähig"– actually, uh, I'll take a segue here, I was together with an English speaking person, a Welsh guy, and he was having problems pronouncing it. We were in the middle of a discussion and we had the podcast interview going on.

[00:04:44] So in the end of the podcast, I just said, look, can I try something with you that I've been thinking? And then he said, sure. And I said, well, just picture an ankle, like the foot, you know, the part that connect the foot to the leg kind of thing. And he said, yeah, I get it. And I said, okay, well say that word "ankle". And then I said, well, picture fake, like Donald Trump's news. And he said "fake". And then I said, well, yeah, just say that "ankle fake". And then he just said, "ankle fake", "anklefake". That's awesome. And so he was pronouncing it as well as you can, if you don't speak German, you know?

[00:05:13] So, just for anybody out there, if you're not quite sure how to pronounce it, just think of ankle and then anything fake, like a Gucci bag that has the wrong letters on it or something, you know? So, anyway…

[00:05:22] Niels: And now that everyone can pronounce it; in terms of its meaning, it is one of those words that cannot be translated directly into a single English word. Just like the pronunciation help consists of two words, the original German word is also a compound word.

[00:05:39] Made up of the term "enkel", meaning grandchildren, and "fähig", meaning capable. So at its most basic interpretation, the concept of something being "enkelfähig", means that it is capable of being there for your grandchildren.

[00:05:54] In our understanding, we broaden the term to what we call "multi-generational thinking" where the idea is to take future generations into account in your thoughts and actions. The implication, or the hope, would of course be that this leads to more sustainable behavior and more holistic thinking.

[00:06:11] Scott: For me, it was the sustainable part of it as far as growth is concerned. I think growth is something that defines us as humans. It defines us as nature. Nature grows, nature develops. And it's always been a sustainable thing until humans came along.

[00:06:27] So the sustainability of growth is kind of built into nature, until you have greedy little ants who come and just do things for their own good. And so the sustainable growth on all levels, the sustainability of "enkelfähig" is something that got me super interested in it.

[00:06:46] It's something that was keeping me up at night. This can't be the way forward.

[00:06:50] And I'm not really worried about my children's generation and not even necessarily their children's generation. I think the adaptability of human beings is enough so that the pressure that's put on those will feel like the same pressure we have now.

[00:07:02] But I think there's an ultimate end to all of this. And I would hate to see humanity end before we're actually like in Star Trek and we're fighting Klingons and stuff, you know. That's where I would like to see humanity and it takes a while to get there.

[00:07:16] Eirik: I like the fact that the only acceptable end to humanity is defeat by the Klingons.

[00:07:22] Scott: If you're going to go out, you might as well go out with Klingons at your back.

[00:07:25] Niels: That sounds to me like, while this word "enkelfähig" was important in formulating precisely what you might be interested in, it touched upon something you had been interested in all along. Maybe you just didn't put it into those specific words, but you were clearly receptive to this idea of sustainability and "Enkelfähigkeit". Is that fair to say?

[00:07:50] Scott: That's very fair to say. And I think most of us are. I honestly think most people I've ever met, and I've traveled to every continent where people actually live. I've talked to people of all religions and all backgrounds and all economics situations. I'm friends with all of those at the same time. So I know how they think.

[00:08:11] Most people are super simple people. They want their family to be okay. They want the family that comes after them to be okay. They want the water that they drink to be clean. They want the air that they breathe to be clean. So most of the people that you come across, there's some part of that that is really important to them, or it drives them to some extent.

[00:08:33] The problem that we have is all of the opinions about how to get from A to B. And that's where everything kind of gets muddled up. You have people on the one side who are fighting everything that they can for the ecological sustainability side of it, but then they turn their nose up at it if you say, we really need to make the workplace a better place.

[00:08:52] That's why this "enkelfähig" thing is, for me, so important. It wasn't like I was out in the streets fighting for this. But my decisions in my private life were, over time, always becoming more along the lines of, okay, well, is this good for the planet, or is this good for my family, or is this good?

[00:09:08] And I think the older you get, the more, you tend to think like that. Unless of course you become the, you know, economic zombie that you're supposed to be by watching too much TV, yeah?

[00:09:19] So a lot of us break through it and I think it's just human nature to not want to destroy everything.

Motivating others

[00:09:24] Niels: That's actually a perfect segue because one of our goals with Plan A is to get these subjects in front of more people and to get more people interested and active on these subjects. And that's something I'm still wondering, how can we connect to those to whom this topic maybe doesn't speak personally yet?

[00:09:42] So it's very instructive to hear your story and learn about how you got more–I don't want to call it activism, but how you got more–actively involved in kind of incorporating that thinking into your everyday life and in talking to others about it.

[00:09:56] Scott: Is that a question? Can I, can I answer? I have a thought, at least I'd like to say.

[00:10:00] Niels: A jumping off point for you.

[00:10:02] Scott: Yeah okay, thank you for your jumping off point, that's perfect. So the way I see it, the way I envision it, now that I've come down from the mountains with the tablets in my hand, and I have this message to say, I feel like we really should be talking to people that we deem as " enkelfähig" in nature, or "enkelfähig" with their story.

[00:10:21] My interest is actually talking to the person who's, you know, in Berlin fighting to stop some building of a building because there's a cockroach that lives there that just doesn't exist in Germany anymore, right. This person who's fighting for those five cockroaches that everybody hates is just as "enkelfähig" as somebody who's trying to stop big oil from doing horrible things.

[00:10:41] If we can tell these stories and if we can make it clear that this all has a pattern and it all has a connection to each other, then we can start getting people understanding that they're part of a bigger thing, right? So you might not have friends who say, you know what, cockroaches are important to me. But you can have friends that say, I'm "enkelfähig" too.

[00:11:00] That's kind of where I see this going. I see things like, let's say an "enkelfähig" rank. So if you've done this thing to make the world a better place, but it doesn't have this huge impact to the world at large. Which is hard to do, because the world's a big place. We forget that sometimes. But if you're in your little corner of the world doing your little thing, and then you meet another "enkelfähig" person, and they have three stripes on their shoulder and you have three stripes on your shoulder too, then I know you are fighting the right fight. And I know we at least agree on that.

[00:11:32] There's certain portions of it that I think putting it under this umbrella of "enkelfähig" really can help people understand that they're a part of a collective, that it can help motivate to keep moving when you feel like nobody's listening, nobody knows, nobody understands.

[00:11:48] I think this can change that. If we gave everybody who is intrinsically motivated to do something just 20% more motivation, how much change could we get out of that?

[00:11:58] Niels: If I can pontificate very briefly, because this speaks to me what you're saying. It was very important as far as the aspect of not feeling alone is concerned. And I think it's also important because oftentimes people feel like, oh, if I want to do anything about the environment, I need to solve all the problems in the world, all at once, all on my own.

[00:12:16] Whereas if everyone does a little bit, in aggregate it has the same effect. And that to me seems to be a natural antidote to this doom and despair. One of the tricky bits, maybe about this whole subject area of sustainability, which kind of most people interpret to be purely environmentalism, and multi-generational thinking; at first glance one might think that this is only about future generations.

Finding happiness by giving back

[00:12:44] Niels: Is that true? Are we sacrificing our happiness just for the benefit of others? Or do we immediately reap benefits ourselves, if we behave multi-generationally?

[00:12:57] Scott: It depends on what you consider a benefit. For me, we live in a world where we've been taught, at least the Western world has been taught, that cheap tricks and cheap thrills are what benefits you and what makes you happy. We're learning very quickly, and there's a significant portion of our generation that understands that, that was a false hope.

[00:13:14] We're all looking for a way to be happy. There's a couple of components to happiness and spending 20% less than you make, in a world that's run by economics, is a way to become financially stable and then to not have the stresses that turn you into an unhappy person. So avoiding stress is one.

[00:13:33] And the other one is giving back. This is something that most people just don't understand. It's something that religions have, um, productized, let's say. But if you talk to anybody who didn't give back and then started giving back, they're going to explain a feeling to you that you don't see very often.

[00:13:51] So I think if we can take "enkelfähig" and we can package it so that it's understood what we're doing now is really giving. It's not, we're making this world a better place for us today, but we're giving.

[00:14:04] This generation that we live in, we can still drive Porsches and we can still do the SUV thing. It's in our DNA. It's fine. But we don't want that for the future and we shouldn't. So if we're driving our SUVs, but at the same time preparing the generations below us to understand that there are other values in life and we teach them other things than what we were taught, I think giving that to the future is collectively something that would make us feel better and collectively more happy.

[00:14:31] I hope I answered that correctly. I think the giving part of it, if we could see it as, this is what we're giving to the future, then I think that would make us happy.

[00:14:42] Niels: You were joking earlier about environmentalism not necessarily being in your mind in Alabama. But this giving back, that is a very american concept, I feel like.

[00:14:53] Scott: Well, I mean, it's not an American concept. It's a humanistic concept. It's something that philosophers have been talking about a long, long, long, long time. This goes super back.

[00:15:02] Niels: Yeah, I mean purely in terms of being established in society, I think in America, in the States, there's a lot more church groups and baking for your neighborhood, and that sort of thing.

[00:15:11] Scott: It's because the government isn't as socially minded as it is in Europe. There's a more intrinsic governmental involvement in social areas in Europe than there is in the United States. And it's just, if you don't have a safety net, you need a safety net.

[00:15:25] And as far as I'm concerned, the churches in the States basically take advantage of the situation. We'll help you, but you have to sell your soul to us. And that's a high price to pay. So as far as I'm concerned, yes, there's more of that mentality , but they're just cashing in on human nature and circumstance.

[00:15:46] What's positive out of this, you know, advantage taking of that circumstance in the United States, is it is more intrinsic inside of the people that giving back to the community is something that needs to happen.

[00:15:58] So you do see a lot more people extracting wealth from the system and putting it back into the system to help the poor. I think if it was done on a coordinated and on a real level, I think there would be no poverty in the United States, because there's just so much wealth. Um, but you know, it's all PR. PR helps.

[00:16:19] Niels: Is the missing link simply the realization that accumulating money will not make you happy, and will not make your family happy?

[00:16:27] Scott: Yeah. And that comes down to education, you know, to believe it's just the money. It all starts with financial education. That's something that you don't have in any of the education systems I've ever seen. My kids are in the German system. They're not teaching them how to deal with money or what's important.

"Enkelfähigkeit" in our personal and work lives

[00:16:42] Niels: This is all somewhat abstract talking about giving back feels good and it's an educational issue. If we dropped to the more concrete level, what are you specifically doing at the moment towards "Enkelfähigkeit"?

[00:16:58] Scott: I'm talking about it; everywhere I can; with everybody that I can find who wants to talk to me, and maybe even doesn't want to talk to me about it. Um, I'm thinking about it constantly. So for me and myself, I'm wondering is this "enkelfähig" or is that "enkelfähig".

[00:17:12] I actually see it further than most people. So if I come and I say, you know what, I want to tell this story about someone who is dying of cancer, but is happy doing it. And he's singing his way out of life. I think that's an "enkelfähig" thing. And I think that that's an inspiration for other people to not die in despair, but to die in happiness.

[00:17:29] In my private life, I have to say, and that's been continuous even before "enkelfähig", I'm really conscious of what I have in my hands. You know, like, is this thing I have in my hands, did this ruin somebody's life or did it cause a problem for earth?

[00:17:45] In the actions that I do and the things that I purchase and the decisions that I make, I'm actually already starting to think, is this "enkelfähig", or is it not? And once you've got your brain wrapped around what your definition of "enkelfähig" is, and that's the thing about philosophy is you can interpret it for yourself, then it's really just a conscious thing, is this what I'm doing, or what I'm making, or where I'm going, is this "enkelfähig", or not? And if not, can I offset it somehow if I have to do it anyway?

[00:18:11] And if you want to get even more concrete, I avoid plastic like the plague. That would be the kind of thing. And that's not, I mean, we can all agree that that's not going to change much. But it certainly, over time, little by little, will change the way things are packaged, as an example. You know, things like that.

[00:18:29] Eirik: You spoke quite a bit about how "enkelfähig" is impacting your own life and how you live your life. What about in a sort of more professional context or your workplace? Are there some specific examples that you can give to people who might be listening and wondering, what are the kind of practical aspects that you can take action with to become more "enkelfähig"?

[00:18:50] Scott: There's a few levels. One is going to be how you produce and design your product, if you have a product or a service that you're offering. How much impact does that actually have on the environment? So the, just on the face of it, environmental impact of how you work and what you produce. So that's the product side of it.

[00:19:08] Where I see myself and what I would like to really dig into and what my focus is going to be–so I'm in the family of "enkelfähig", or I'm in the philosophy of "enkelfähig"; you, and I, and everybody else that's in there, are in the same team–but my focus is going to be on making the workplace a better place. And I wanted to say a safer place, but I think more an emotionally safer place for people to work.

[00:19:30] Health and safety has always been making sure you don't get your hands cut off. I think it should incorporate a mental safety and a mental health capacity to it. I believe that if you pay attention to that part of a person's work life and you do the small things that it would take to keep them mentally healthy at work and mentally happy at work, that's almost too hippy for most bosses.

[00:19:54] Like, I don't need happy workers, I need effective workers; like that kind of thing. So for me, my fight is going to be to create structures and to be part of a leadership future that lets people be who they are and also be productive at the same time. Cause I think if you are who you are and you're allowed to be that, I think you'll be the most productive person you can be.

[00:20:18] And again, that's part of happiness, being productive, as well as giving back, is something that makes a human happy, because it is this growth that's part of our nature.

[00:20:27] Niels: A little anecdote there: one of the companies I'm currently working with, they take mental health fairly seriously. And one of the things they're doing is they anonymously collect, they call it notes of appreciation. So you can write a note about a colleague, it can be anything, you're always there to help me if I need you, um, you're always smiling, it lightens up the whole office, or you did a great job on Thursday; whatever it is, you write it down anonymously and they then forward it to the subject.

[00:20:54] Scott: That is awesome. And to be honest with you, I want to be in contact with those people. I want to be in groups where we're discussing things like that. I want to make public all of these things somehow. And I want that all to be part of "enkelfähig".

[00:21:11] Because you cannot be in business, you cannot be sustainable, if you don't have a sustainable workforce.

[00:21:18] And I don't see enough people fighting for that. I see it coming from certain places. I mean, uh, Silicon Valley just like totally mangled their entire workforce for like 20 years before they realized, oh my God, that's not sustainable. And now you have some reallly good initiatives coming from there.

[00:21:35] But all over the world, I'm running into companies who have different aspects. I mean, my whole journey on this got started before "enkelfähig" with the book called Reinventing Organizations. It's all about not needing hierarchies in companies. It's a really good read.

[00:21:49] I can't think of the author right now, it's a French guy, Frederic something. But what I love about this guy is, if you try and look him up and you want to get in contact with him or something, you can't. I found a note on one of his websites, if you're trying to get in touch with me, I'm probably with my kids on the beach somewhere. Like something like that. It was just awesome because I think he comes out of the woodworks like twice a year, does a speech somewhere collects 50 grand and then he takes off somewhere else and he's not available. I think that's "enkelfähig". Do something good for the world and then disappear.

[00:22:16] I mean, you have to have the capacity to do that. We're all built to move on to the next thing. But if the next thing is taking care of your family… I think financial freedom is something that's really underestimated and people's ability to be creative.

[00:22:29] We're put into a system where we're losing from the beginning. I got a credit card when I was 18 in the United States. That was my birthday present from MasterCard or something, some bank. I didn't just get one, I got two or three.

[00:22:41] Eirik: Welcome to the system, Scott. That's the birthday message for the 18th.

[00:22:45] Scott: That would have been the credit card that I would have activated had they said it, you know, like welcome to the system, first one's free.

[00:22:51] But if I'm going to prepare my kids for anything, it's for financial freedom. If you just live the right life, learn the right things, and build your financial system around that, that doesn't mean you're going to have everything you would ever want in your life, but you're going to have a system that you can live within, where you're living below your means, you're saving more than most, you put yourself into a position, and you leverage yourself, so that your thirties and forties are really spent the way you want to spend them and not the way your boss wants you to spend them.

Just a drop in the ocean? Accepting any effort & trusting the process.

[00:23:22] Niels: So we've talked about little environmental things like considering what you're buying, not buying too much plastic. We've talked about happiness in the workplace. We've talked about financial freedom. The subject is a lot broader. Does that mean that everything else gets ignored, falls by the wayside, do we have to constrain ourselves to one particular thing?

[00:23:42] What do you tell all the naysayers that claim, oh, you buy less plastic, that's great, but that's just a drop in the ocean? And surely, that can't change and won't change the entire world?

[00:23:52] Scott: Okay, this is something I seriously mean. And if you think it's not the right thing to say, you can take it out, yeah? I don't judge anybody, for anything, ever. If you've ever had to fight for anything in your life, like seriously fight, to make it through something, then you know, there's judgment that can't be made. Like you can't say to that person, you shouldn't have done that. They'll be like, yeah, Jesus Christ, yes, I had to do that so I can do this. There are survival instincts, uh, and I don't know what makes a person, a person. And I don't know what gives them their opinion.

[00:24:27] But what I do know is: the person who's saying, you know, big oil is not the problem; I do know that those people think that there are problems. And I do know that those people fight for something. And I know that that something is most likely something that could be considered "enkelfähig".

[00:24:42] And I don't want to start a movement or be part of a movement that on the one side would disclude someone from being part of that, just because the opinion isn't the same on the other side.

[00:24:56] So I don't have anything to say to the naysayers, except for find the thing that you do think is important, find the thing you are passionate about, and work on that. Because no matter what, we need a better future, no matter what we need a future worth living.

[00:25:14] And that doesn't even necessarily include the fact that you believe that today is not a good day. That just means I know that the future needs to be better or should be better than it is now. There are certain things that move people and that are important to them. And whatever that is, work on that, do that, take action.

[00:25:30] I also see the generation of my daughter, they are "enkelfähig". I think she's seeing things like in her world where she goes, since she interacts with other parents and stuff, and she's like, hmm, okay, that's not how I want to be. And her whole generation, they don't care about the same things that other people cared about. And I see the effects of this more accepting type of nature. So it gives me hope. And I really think, just do your best, make sure the next generation understands.

[00:26:01] Niels: I really like this radical acceptance of people aspect of this.

[00:26:05] I like it. That's a whole new aspect to multi-generational thinking. It's not just solving it for the next generation. The change of generation is actually part of the solution.

[00:26:14] Scott: I got a little emotional there with the I don't judge people thing.

[00:26:17] Niels: I think that that's actually perfect. That was such an important point.

[00:26:19] This nonjudgmental approach is so important because there's a lot of people, especially with environmental sustainability, who don't even dare speak up, don't even dare say what they're doing and the lives, because they know that there's going to be someone who says, oh, as if that does anything.

[00:26:35] This over-optimization, I want to say, kind of leads to complete paralysis where you don't even dare do anything out of the ordinary because it's not going to be enough.

[00:26:46] Scott: Yeah, that's the problem. If you become aggressive on one side, you bring out the aggressiveness on the other side. We need to take the aggressiveness out of it on all sides. I know how these people think. I don't think like that, but I can certainly talk with them. I think we can bring everybody from the edges to the center.

[00:27:02] Eirik: One of the things that you've been talking about and touching on quite regularly over the conversation that I thought was really interesting and that I hadn't quite sort of thought through as much, is the inclusive nature of "enkelfähig". Because I think what you were saying, Scott , makes a lot of sense that it actually is a good setup for a constructive discourse. Because this idea of wanting the right thing for your children's future is universal.

[00:27:27] The question then just is: how do you define the right thing, a good future? So it gives you this kind of commonality or the common denominator to start that conversation, and then actually start discussing, in a hopefully constructive and non-antagonistic way, what might be the right thing? What is going to lead to a sustainable future?

[00:27:47] I had never quite thought about it quite like that. So I quite enjoyed that you brought that to the fore.

[00:27:53] Scott: If I can say, on a psychological level, one of the needs, that we as humans have, is to be part of a collective. So one of the motivating factors that someone has when they're really just adamant about getting you on their side, like, you have to believe what I believe, it's not about you, it's about them. They don't want to be alone in this world. They want to have people that they're thinking with and that they're fighting with and that they're doing with.

[00:28:16] The guy that you had as a friend when he was 22 and he was just trying to explain to you, like, this is the most important thing, and it's not your thing, he's going to be a lot less adamant about getting you on his side if he knows you're on his side already.

[00:28:29] I think we really can take the aggressive discourse out of it if everybody just understands, look, we're all in the same room because we are all "enkelfähig". And the thing that you do, I accept as just as "enkelfähig" as the thing that I do.

[00:28:40] We're going to have to put some thought into how do we achieve that feeling, and that philosophy, of we're all the same, no matter what, we're all part of the same collective, and none of us are more important in this than any other one. Those are the kinds of things that I would like to discuss and explore.

Not everyone is in a position to choose

[00:28:56] Niels: Not everyone needs to dig into it in the greatest level of detail and read the handbook on resilience and stuff. I think if the listener just wants a single takeaway, it's simply to whatever you do in life, just wonder out aloud is this, is what I'm doing, is what I'm about to embark on, is what I'm about to purchase, is that compatible with future generations, or not?

[00:29:20] Eirik: And I think that's a good point to bring up the fact that sometimes, actually, there might be people who don't have any options. Especially at a time where inflation is going through the roof, et cetera, and so on. And you might not have the financial freedom that you talked about, Scott, to have much choice in your decision-making.

[00:29:35] Just to mention that it is also a significant systemic issue. If you aren't given or supported with the resources and the environment to have the time, the ability, to think about this, as well as the sort of educational kind of structure and support to have the ability to really be able to engage with this, to be given the support to be able to engage with us, then it is going to be significantly more challenging.

[00:30:02] Scott: Absolutely. And I mean the judgment should be passed on oneself, let's say. If you're "enkelfähig", and you paid attention to it, and you read up on it, but you're in circumstances that don't even allow you to have time to think "is this 'enkelfähig'", or it's not even something you can afford to do, that doesn't make you any less "enkelfähig".

[00:30:19] That's the thing. The judgment is for you to have on yourself. And given time and given opportunity, you're clear to yourself that you'll make different decisions.

[00:30:28] Niels: It's a funny dichotomy. On the one hand, we often think about initiatives, especially in environmental sustainability, to be sort of a luxury item. Where a huge part of the population simply cannot afford to think about these things and to worry about these things and to, you know, switch to electric cars and things like that.

[00:30:48] On the other hand, it's absolutely, fundamental. We need the planet just like we need food and water and actually food and water comes from the planet. And so it cannot be a luxury to protect it. And I forgot where I was going with that.

[00:31:03] Scott: It's a dog chasing its tail kind of situation. Until governments start making decisions that actually have impact on things like that, people are always going to be in the situation that they have to make decisions that basically benefit themselves on a just a survival level, at the demise of whatever little piece of the earth they just killed doing it.

[00:31:21] It's unfortunate. But things like "enkelfähig", and there's initiatives all over the place. "enkelfähig" is just the one thing that I don't consider an initiative. I think it's a proper philosophy that you can actually model your life by, and model the way you work by, and come back and review and change over time. So I think it's not an initiative.

[00:31:40] But the world is waking up to the fact that something has to change. And I've just decided to go all in on "enkelfähig" and do what I can to make sure that that message is what everybody's going to hear.

[00:31:51] And I think over time, just like in the end of the fifties, early sixties, when the hippie generation started coming out and they said, okay, there's a different way, we can't just be going to war all the time, we can't just be ruining our environment all the time, I think we have a neo-hippie type of situation going on. So we will change things over time. It's just a matter of how quick. So we need to get some momentum going with "enkelfähig".

[00:32:16] Niels: And I think that's an important point, that sustainability, in some sense, is like a social security safety net, where not everyone in society can go all in on it, but they need to be able to trust in society overall moving in that direction.

[00:32:34] But our interview has turned into a bit of a conversation. So, Eirik, do you want to wrap us up?

[00:32:41] Eirik: Yes, of course.

[00:32:42] And I think that wraps up this conversation nicely. Thank you Scott, for taking us through that, Niels, for asking the questions and, most of all, thank you for listening. We hope to be able to welcome you back to our next Plan-A.show. Until then, keep it resilient.

[00:32:58] Goodbye.

[00:33:00] Scott: Bye.

[00:33:00] Niels: Resilience, oddly enough is something we didn't even touch upon.

[00:33:07] Eirik: Haha, very much. I enjoyed listening to that. I hope other people do.

[00:33:10] Scott: Yup. Alright, I gotta go. I'll talk to you guys later. Eirik, Niels, bye.

[00:33:15] Eirik: Have a good weekend. See you monday.

[00:33:17] Scott: Yeah, you guys too, see you monday.

[00:33:18] Niels: Buh-bye.

[00:33:19] Scott: Bye.

[00:33:19] Eirik: Cheers. Bye-bye.

Credits

[00:33:27] Niels: This was Plan-A.show/5. Go there to download or share this episode, or to read its transcript.

[00:33:34] If you have any comments or questions, please email us at feedback@plan-a.show. If you work in any of the areas discussed on this podcast, we would love to record an episode with you. Please get in touch.

[00:33:47] Plan-A.show was created by Eirik Bar, Niels Ganser and Scott Denton. This episode was edited by Niels. This episode's music is by Nikolay Skvortsov.

[00:33:57] Thank you for listening.